Curse

Fitz Rinley · Nov 05, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Accurax,

It depends upon what you/we/they call fun. Go back to Mott's sales system and look at your personality profiling. ANet must meet each of the four types in the economic sense in order to create the kind of attraction your attempting. The only real value they will effect is more Disney Land economics. You know, if business is poor paint the counter.

Artificial inflation is countered by the four things: 1) No one wants anything less than a max. what ever that is in any ctegory, 2) No one cares about role playing, story telling, conceptualization, etc. - only bean counting, which leads to 3) No one that has their gold and max items, has to spend them, and last 4) People are not so generaous, concerned, connected, or compassionate enough to care what happens when their "vitual non-person" is scrapped. Since it has no value it is just as likely to be erased and its wealth destroyed or held for another of the four character slots. No one else benefits from dead money.

Obviously these may not occur in every case, but I suspect them in a sufficient number of cases as to make the situation what it is. I do not participate in the trade economy. I do not find it to be of any value to me. I can make more money killing monsters and SS then I can selling anything to my fellow players. I'm not going to sit for hours waiting for someone to think about buying something I could get off a staff or Axe. (I'll never play PvP, it takes too long to DL anything to bother with.)

This part of the game is the second worst aspect of it. That it is more about how much money you can make and less about the personal development of the character and their experience in the aftermath of a near nuclear holocaust like we hope we have missed.

Fitz Rinley

Fitz Rinley · Nov 05, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Well there are some valid points as well.

I think the major peeve of mine is that because the game wants us to focus on the battle part of the game, there is little to focus our energies on except a handful of items. There is no real value of low-mid level items except for what little crafting materials they yield. Level restricting items (a very sore subject with alot of people) would put a little more value into otherwise worthless items.
...But that would make the game just like just about every other MMO.

I would accept level restricting items in a heartbeat. I would enjoy it immensely. Especially if the items actually were present that were capable of being used in the various areas you were in. I'd even go one step further, if you gate into an area with items that do not match that area - you lose them. Gone Droks Armor in Ft. Ranik on the 8th level player.

As it is I see little reason to play the game for more than how much can I bean count. "It will take me X number of times doing this area to reach this level. When I pass thru this trench I average Y amount of gold from objects over 10 passes. Between X and Y I can max out and be ready to farm without having ever done a mission or quest after Z hours worth of WORK." There is no reason to play this game. It has no role value.

Fitz Rinley

Arturo02 · Nov 05, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

It's very difficult to relate an MMO's economy to real life because they are two different animals.

We don't have depressions and recessions. People always have a way to make income at anytime. There is not a finite supply of goods.

I think there's so much concern over the economy and money because a lot of people who play this game are young, and they are experiencing the complete freedom of both having substantial amounts of money and trying to manage it as well for the first time.

Not trying to bash anyone. The majority of people 28 and younger are lacking even basic knowledge about how to manage and maintain their finances. I may be off a year or two, but I read the study in the paper a few months ago. It's everyone's fault, parents dont do enough to teach their kids, and they avoid the topic pretty much completely in school. You are left on your own. Why do you think people who do finacial planning or any kind of investing for others as a career do well? It's not because it's a profession that deals with money and the economy, it is because most of us don't know how to do it ourselves.

If you have poor money management skills, or none at all you will not have money in the game either. It's that simple. No economy fix will prevent you from buying every set of armor along the way in the game. No gold sink will stop you from buying a max damage axe when 5-27 is just as good.

The economy is fine. You never have to worry about a downturn, and items will always go down in price over time or remain stable.

On a side note, mudflation will not hurt the overall population, only people in the merchant profession in the game. But the smart ones will stay ahead by having the newest and alos the most demanded items. The game is set-up too much to hinder merchants so you are seeing now a weeding out of the tons of people doing it.

You guys and gals do all this over-analyzing but it's really simple if you try and look at it that way

Even then I wrote a million words lol.

Dax · Nov 05, 2005, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

It's very difficult to relate an MMO's economy to real life because they are two different animals.

Indeed, like I said unless the OP is privvy to some inside information about the game mechanics and exactly how they work... you can't really be sure what Anet controls and what they do not.

Money management skills aside, most player soon realize there are a limited amount of things they really need in the game.

Goonter · Nov 05, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

I like nice looking gear and stuff but I only use what I can offord. Fortunatly for me my ranger has a set of 15k armor. Thats about all I can bare to work for because I dont farm.
And Im content,...my other armor may be common but its just as good as anything else.

The only time the economy ticks me off is when I realizes I need to roll a PvP character because my PvE character doesnt have the runes and weapons/mods to PvP with the optimal edge.

Sagius Truthbarron · Nov 05, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

What half if not more of the GW population thinks is that if i dont have the best, rarest weapon in the game, im not good. Where as in other games you had to have th best,rarest, most sought after items in the game in order to be competitive. This is not the case in GW. Examples:

1) A max 15% in stance crystaline with 10/10 sundering, +30 health will do the EXACT SAME THING as a max dmg 15% in stance collectors long sword with a 10/8 sundering and a +28 health pommel. whats the difference? about 1 million in gold. The miniscule amounts of percentage differences when it comes to stuff like that honestly isnt that big of a factor.

2) Take the warrior for example. His Gladiators armor from droknars forge will have the same stats and the same function as the 15k gladiators or the FOW gladiators. difference? The fact that you can buy your whole armor and materials to make armor and majr runes for the price of 2 of the 5 pieces of 15k armor or 2 of the ectos that you need for the FOW armor.

3) runes. WHile some runes do make it worth your while to have a superrior rune over a minor or major, some just dont make sense. It is proven that a Major rune of Vigor is only 9 health less than a Sup Vigor. Difference? 9 health and 70k gold. IF you honestly need another 9 points in health to live, youre dead anyway.

But what it mainly boils down to is Looks > function. Astetically they have to have that Max crystaline of uberness and the 15k armors. Yes i have fow armor on my monk, but my wand is a quest item from grenditch courthouse that beats the crap out of the brohns rod and i use a collectors 20/20 healing ank. best combo ive used the whole 500+ hours i have on that char alone. One of the best shields in the game is the collectors 45/-2 stance shield located in the desert. but for some reason everyone wants that godly ugly green/blue eternal shield.

For anyone starting this game, i would tell you that collectors items are the key for you having the godliest weapon without spending a whole lot of money to get one. the 15% enchanted long sword from the desert will do the same thing as your 15% while enchanted fellblade u want, but will cost you a hell of a lot less.

Sorry for the rambling, just my $.02

Put this on the front page instead. It will tell you a lot more than about the GW economy and a lot less about "RW" politics.

The OP obviously has little idea of how the game works, like many of those interested in the GW economy.

He gives out scenarios, saying that they will happen based on theories, see this well ahead of time and already know the solution to the problems that corporate Think Tanks could neither foresee or find that same solution to. Most interesting.

I also enjoyed how the OP sums up the Guild Wars Guru standard of being for a generalised crowd and "family friendly" when he says

Quote:

they drop so infrequently as to be akin to rocking horse shit.

I misunderstood a portion of the OP that made me think that you wanted to give starting players a certain amount of money when they start the game. I also though that you classified this as an "RW" governmental trait. I've corrected my post.

Forgive my ramblings, misspellings and double post. It's 2am, hot, and has been a long day

Bilderberg · Nov 05, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

If that's true then this whole thread would be for naught... which is a good thing. because we won't have to worry so much anymore

but of course that's still an "if" until some reliable source confirms it.

From your prevoius post, I was not really quoting anyone and you provide an interesting perspective. I really like the GW economy and I think when you mention new players coming into the game I would like to point out 2 things.

New Person Makes it over to Pre-Searing:
1) Get Discourgaged because he only has 200g to his name and can't buy some items that people are selling. [This would be the burger flipper I mentioned in my earlier post.]
2) Be pro-active and realize that "Hey if these people are trading these Items that is what I need to learn how to do!" and he will try even harder to get from the 200g to a more reasonable number. [Future VP / Boardmember]

This page link below was a recent article from the GW Programmers about Farming and the Economy. Actually scarry to me, because it seems a little socialist. But it does mention some intersting statistics.
http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...-friday61.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Article

Of course, the number of players who engage in any of these activities -- farming exploits, using bots, selling or buying in-game items for cash –- is very small relative to the total player base. At ArenaNet we play the game just like you do, so we know that for most of you, gold is a precious commodity that you work hard to attain. In fact, our statistics show that 50% of all active accounts have fewer than 10 platinum pieces, and 75% of all active accounts have fewer than 20 platinum pieces. So when we make small tweaks here and there to keep the economy under control, please understand that we’re not trying to make the game harder for the average player. We work hard to understand how normal players play and how extreme players play, and then find just the minimal changes necessary to keep the economy healthy and fair.

The mention of 75% of all accounts have < 20 Platinum means that 75% of the people can't afford any of these new green items that are selling for 50-70K or the no longer available HoD +5 Energy sword that is going for 100K +.

Read the article because it sounds like they really hate the e-bay gold for cash thing that is going on.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 05, 2005, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilderberg

From your prevoius post, I was not really quoting anyone and you provide an interesting perspective. I really like the GW economy and I think when you mention new players coming into the game I would like to point out 2 things.

New Person Makes it over to Pre-Searing:
1) Get Discourgaged because he only has 200g to his name and can't buy some items that people are selling. [This would be the burger flipper I mentioned in my earlier post.]
2) Be pro-active and realize that "Hey if these people are trading these Items that is what I need to learn how to do!" and he will try even harder to get from the 200g to a more reasonable number. [Future VP / Boardmember]

This page link below was a recent article from the GW Programmers about Farming and the Economy. Actually scarry to me, because it seems a little socialist. But it does mention some intersting statistics.
http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...-friday61.html

The mention of 75% of all accounts have < 20 Platinum means that 75% of the people can't afford any of these new green items that are selling for 50-70K or the no longer available HoD +5 Energy sword that is going for 100K +.

Read the article because it sounds like they really hate the e-bay gold for cash thing that is going on.

Anet's #s are also misleading. The amount of gold an account has is hardly an indication fo the player's wealth. It diesn't add up how many globs of ecto that account is buying up to buy his/her FoW armor, or now many black dyes an account has stashed away.

I'd guess the average GW player has probably 100-150K in gold or like valued items either on their characters or in storage. I consider myself fairly average, and I have two characters (out of 7) with 15K armor - the other characters all have droknars. That's 250K easy right there, and doesn't count the goodies in my stash.

So I don't pay much attention to their #s, they are deluding themselves if they actually put much stock in them and think everything is hunky dory.

waterzen · Nov 05, 2005, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

If they want to stop Asian botters,they can ban IP from asia, they dont have to ruin our fun:d

reminded me of this one time i spoke to a caucasian and the first thing he asked was, "hi are you from china?"
and i asked back, "what made you think that?"
and his reply was, "duh, you're chinese aren't you?"

please exercise some sensitivity and grey matter my friend. banning asian IPs will hurt "other asian countries" that churns out pure-harmless-fun-loving-rpg-gamers such as yours truly. where is the love?

anyway, with regard the thread, Accurax has it on point. also, the earlier anet nips the problem (e.g. tax, caps), the less painful it will be.

easier said than done no less.

Shimus DarkRaven · Nov 05, 2005, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Money Sinks. Money loops. Money's money. The Economy.

Every shifting issues that will be discussed now until when the sun explodes in 5 billion years. My input:

Usually by leaving economies alone, when the hype of the game dies down, and you get regular basis players like us, the economy with the "invisible" hand law, it will right itself. When everythings done being hyped up, like perfect mod this, or ecto and shard that, in the end, the economy will flatten itself out in the long run. It may spike now, dip in the future, spike again, then level out. There's so many if's, or when's or who's what's how's, but through experience with world economy, unless you start from in-debt, you really have as much as a chance to make it like that person advertising those perfect mods. You just need to put time and effort and eventually, they'll drop for you.

Invisble hand, my friends. Invisible hand.

--The Shim

Daegul Mistweaver · Nov 05, 2005, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterzen

please exercise some sensitivity and grey matter my friend. banning asian IPs will hurt "other asian countries" that churns out pure-harmless-fun-loving-rpg-gamers such as yours truly. where is the love?

.

You'd think that Anet would be better off perma-banning botters that banning IPs in any event: since companies that sell gold on Ebay will just buy annother account, every ban is annother $50 for Anet(once the 10-hour free trial deal is dealt with). With luck, and a deal of effort on the part of Anet, it might eventually become unprofitable for these compaines to sell on e-bay.

But I digress. What supprises me is the lack of discussion on what is bound to be the most signifigant upcoming item to impact the GW economy: the in-game auction house. My own thought is that this feature continues to be delayed not for lack of the technical savy to impliment it(I'm betting they have a working system already written), but rather by virtue of which strictures to place on it so as not to hurt the economy.

The one real flaw with such a system would be auction-house "campers". Remember when the rune traders were 1st introduced and the amount of runes available was dictated by the # actually sold to the rune traders? Players with money (and likely using bot/macros due to the instant timing required) sat at the rune traders all day and would instantly scoop up any and all popular runes the moment they became available...which allowed them to turn right around and sell those rune directly to players at rediculously inflated prices. If you wanted runes you had no choice to either pay these prices or farm them yourself; you had 0 chance to actually buy them directly from the vendor.

If Anet wants to try and tweak the auction house in such a way that new players can hope to afford "the good stuff" within a reasonable timeframe (couple weeks or so; i.e. not the moment they hit 20 or some such short period), and thus keep said items always within the realm of "attainable" to potential new players, then placing strictures on the auction house is one way to do so. However; how do you do keep the max value low enough, and at the same time prevent the already-rich & bots from camping the auction house for these same items...effectively removing them from the new-player market entirely?

I don't have a solution to this myself. But if you folks are truely interested in a continued and healthy GW economy, this is really where your discussion should be focused.

If anything sounds a bit odd here, it's almost 7am and I'm still up...so I claim fatigue-induced stupidity.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 05, 2005, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Both issues of e-bay and power gaming come down to an environment where points are more important than concept. Since it does not matter what the character would do or how he or she interacts with the world or others, only points matter. These points will be sought after at the average level of the moral state of the end users. Hence, e-bay is more attractive because there is no draw to an inspiring alternative. Afterall, being good, looking good, winnning, is only a matter of points - not values.

Fitz Rinley

Lorien of Mandos · Nov 05, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Why not just make everything available from traders in the game - that will force price caps on all items. Unfortunately, what holds true in in macrocosm of RW is even more prevalent in the microcosm of GW: People are willing to over-invest in things just to make them (the people) appear to be of better worth to others. The same solution works in both instances, too: If you are happy with your +28 hp mod on the weapon you use, what do care if others go crazy over one that is +30? let them...sit back and enjoy the show and be content with the fact that you are a more highly evolved indidual and understand the only differences here are not really functional, but are pure fluff - something to make them feel superior to others. Think of these people like people driving Range Rovers in the middle of a city - does this vehicle offer anything in terms of better functionality in an urban setting? Hell no it doesn't, but they need to have one anyway, just to let everybody else know how uber-whatever they are.

The beautiful thing about this game is that you can play it and enjoy it without having to resort to this sort of behavior. I can (and do) use a collector's staff from the desert on my primary character, it is better than Morgriff's staff which sells at 10k or so. Wanna know what I paid for the items to trade to get the staff? 400g or so. It is a sad reflection of the state of our culture when such trivialities come to have such import.

lyra_song · Nov 05, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daegul Mistweaver

You'd think that Anet would be better off perma-banning botters that banning IPs in any event: since companies that sell gold on Ebay will just buy annother account, every ban is annother $50 for Anet(once the 10-hour free trial deal is dealt with). With luck, and a deal of effort on the part of Anet, it might eventually become unprofitable for these compaines to sell on e-bay.

But I digress. What supprises me is the lack of discussion on what is bound to be the most signifigant upcoming item to impact the GW economy: the in-game auction house. My own thought is that this feature continues to be delayed not for lack of the technical savy to impliment it(I'm betting they have a working system already written), but rather by virtue of which strictures to place on it so as not to hurt the economy.

The one real flaw with such a system would be auction-house "campers". Remember when the rune traders were 1st introduced and the amount of runes available was dictated by the # actually sold to the rune traders? Players with money (and likely using bot/macros due to the instant timing required) sat at the rune traders all day and would instantly scoop up any and all popular runes the moment they became available...which allowed them to turn right around and sell those rune directly to players at rediculously inflated prices. If you wanted runes you had no choice to either pay these prices or farm them yourself; you had 0 chance to actually buy them directly from the vendor.

If Anet wants to try and tweak the auction house in such a way that new players can hope to afford "the good stuff" within a reasonable timeframe (couple weeks or so; i.e. not the moment they hit 20 or some such short period), and thus keep said items always within the realm of "attainable" to potential new players, then placing strictures on the auction house is one way to do so. However; how do you do keep the max value low enough, and at the same time prevent the already-rich & bots from camping the auction house for these same items...effectively removing them from the new-player market entirely?

I don't have a solution to this myself. But if you folks are truely interested in a continued and healthy GW economy, this is really where your discussion should be focused.

If anything sounds a bit odd here, it's almost 7am and I'm still up...so I claim fatigue-induced stupidity.

I remember how Neopets deals with merchant campers....they restock the shop at random intervals. >.>;

I think with an auction house, global prices will be for the first time VISIBLE. And hopefully new players will have common sense. I think of Ebay and some stuff that happens there. Theres an ebay user who likes to snatch up rare toys and the like. I have a lot of friends who have been out-bidded by him simply because he has deeper pockets. Usually the person turns around and resells the item for much higher prices and very often makes no money because: people wont spend $1300 on a single toy. And everyone knows him and his MO. Its simply not smart collecting and better prices for the same item can always be found. Especially when re-issues of it are released, it depreciates the original value.

Essentially there is no way to stop rich players from buying items from people who are trying to drop the prices (like me) and ripping of newbies and reselling for higher prices when the auction house comes. If this auction house does behave like ebay, it BETTER have some sort of fee for putting items up and deducts from your total sale cost.

Bilderberg · Nov 05, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Anet's #s are also misleading. The amount of gold an account has is hardly an indication fo the player's wealth. It diesn't add up how many globs of ecto that account is buying up to buy his/her FoW armor, or now many black dyes an account has stashed away.

I'd guess the average GW player has probably 100-150K in gold or like valued items either on their characters or in storage. I consider myself fairly average, and I have two characters (out of 7) with 15K armor - the other characters all have droknars. That's 250K easy right there, and doesn't count the goodies in my stash.

So I don't pay much attention to their #s, they are deluding themselves if they actually put much stock in them and think everything is hunky dory.

I agree with the fact that it doesn't take into account armor and items your character does have. But put it in perspective, how much gold do you have at one time. What they are saying is that the overwealming majority of players don't have these great items and don't have ectos'. Now that I do believe and would say is factual. How many guys you see running around in 15K? Compare that to total number of players..... If a guy can't keep 20K in his storage he's probably not walking around wearing FoW armor or even 15K.

BTW and this is just my opinion most people that are in these Forums are part of that upper 25% class that have $$$$ and decent items. Mainly because of the information that they can get out of the forums. Knowlege is power and every 15-35 year old that purchases the game doesn't register in these forums (maybe that statistic is like 75% or less).

NightOwl · Nov 05, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilderberg

The mention of 75% of all accounts have < 20 Platinum means that 75% of the people can't afford any of these new green items that are selling for 50-70K or the no longer available HoD +5 Energy sword that is going for 100K +.

That article is a joke. 75% of accounts have < 20 plat? How many of those accounts aren't played anymore? How many of them were activated within a couple weeks of the statistic? Due to the lack of a monthly subscription, Anet can talk about "active accounts" all they want, and refer to accounts that were turned on...even if they aren't played. In a monthly fee game, active accounts mean something (even then, some people buy long subscriptions and stop playing), however in GW it means next to nothing.

Anet can spin it however they like, really. Unless they start talking about "accounts played within the last month" I'll continue to take their statistics with a grain of salt.

Dax · Nov 05, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Perhaps the problem, and I'm just throwing this out, is the game isn't really about accumulation of items and wealth (I think I remember reading that somewhere) but rather action/combat.

Despite the fact that most people say that they prefer this over grinding over gold/crafting/levels in traditional MMOs- what people 'say' they want and what people 'really' want are often 2 different things. It seems to me we're trying to find complexity in a simplistic economy.

Quite frankly, I have no idea how much gold I have.

Lagg · Nov 05, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

The biggest problem with GW's economy is that there simply is no problem. Which is quite strange, since economies have a natural tendency to become problematic over time.

First of all, let's set things straight. There's no such thing as "gold" or "items" having any value in Guild Wars. The only real commodity is time.

Do you want a perfect PvE character? Go play the game for a week or two.

Do you want perfect items? Go farm some greens in Sorrow's Furnace for a week or two.

Still not satisfied? Go farm griffons for another week or two.

Basta.

You never ever need to interact with another player to get anywhere in this game. And I'm not even talking about PvP-only, where almost everything is presented to you on a golden platter to begin with.

As for the truly hard-to-get PvE commodities (ectoplasm, shards, perfect crystalline swords), they are reserved for the hardcore playerbase and offer no advantage whatsoever over the newcomers, apart from "looking cool".

So for heaven's sake, don't take away the time sinks.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 06, 2005, 12:52 AM // 00:52

A fee and deducts would have some effect similar to OP. The difficulty I see is the maturity of play. E-Bay had trouble with supposed 'children' getting on-line and jacking bids up to ridiculaous prices just to watch them not sell.

With some of the things I see in the game, I would not put this past several or even many of these certain players. (And I don't think all of them are young enough to be in school.)

Fitz Rinley

w00t! · Nov 06, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

What half if not more of the GW population thinks is that if i dont have the best, rarest weapon in the game, im not good. Where as in other games you had to have th best,rarest, most sought after items in the game in order to be competitive. This is not the case in GW.

Truer words were never spoken. Most of the rest of the thread is redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl

Anet can spin it however they like, really. Unless they start talking about "accounts played within the last month" I'll continue to take their statistics with a grain of salt.

I love how, when faced with information they don't like, people will choose to ignore statistics.

It's in Anet's best interests to maintain an economy that will please the majority of the people (not all the people). All of the information on your character is stored in a database. A simple SQL command can give them all of the information that they need to tweak the economy. Want to know how man ecto's there are. select count from char_inv where item="ecto" will tell them.

Guild Wars economy isn't driven by need, it's driven by vanity. Personally, I have 15k armor for my female warrior because it looks neat, whereas my monk uses normal Droks armor. I'd never buy any fissure armor (except the warrior helm) because I like the 15k better.

And I'm one of the stabilizing forces in the economy in that I regularly go to Old Ascalon and GIVE AWAY nice stuff. I gave a near max +10% ench chaos axe to a new player the other day, just cause he seemed like a nice guy. His appreciation was worth more than any vanity item I could own.

Oh, and I never charge for running people anywhere, and do not accept tips. My wealth, like it was in Runescape, is measured in goodwill, not in the accumulation of "perfect" items.

Imagine what would happen if some of the the wealthiest people in GW decided to become philanthropists.